Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, feasting in the Davar home was less than agreeable for all parties. This week, things are much more congenial as Shallan finds her temporary home in the warcamps.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here. Click on through to join the discussion.
Chapter 40: Palona
Point of View: Shallan
Setting: Sebarial’s warcamp
Symbology: Pattern, Kalak, Vedel
IN WHICH Shallan proceeds with Sebarial to his warcamp, complete with promised badinage; she observes that his warcamp is more like a well-planned city; Jasnah’s notes prove insightful completely inadequate and outdated; Sebarial has built a thriving economy out here in nowhere; Palona greets them at the manor with more wit and humor; Sebarial gives a breezy account of Shallan’s presence, and Shallan provides an only slightly more complete one; Palona welcomes her anyway; Shallan blanks out again; arrangements are made for appropriate servants, wages, and so on; Shallan falls asleep in a bed made apparently of air and wishes.
Quote of the Week:
“… I have the most complete force of tailors, artisans, and cooks in the camps. Already, I’ve set up twelve manufactories—textiles, shoes, ceramics, several mills. I control the glassblowers as well.”
Shallan turned back toward him. That pride in his voice didn’t at all match what Jasnah had written of the man. Of course, most of her notes and knowledge of the highprinces came from infrequent visits to the Shattered Plains, and none had been recent.
“From what I’ve heard,” Shallan said, “your forces are among the least successful in the war against the Parshendi.”
Sebarial got a twinkle in his eyes. “The others hunt quick income from gemhearts, but what will they spend their money on?…”
I like Sebarial. Not your typical Alethi lighteyes. He has pride in his accomplishments, and they’re genuinely his accomplishments. He hires capable people, listens to their input, decides what to implement, and lets them do their job (well, except for the cook), all the while directing the activity toward his own goals. He achieves a unique power by providing what everyone else needs but does not value, while the other highprinces are pursuing things they value but don’t need.
Commentary: I often start the reread process by going through a chapter, highlighting items I want to talk about and sections that I think might make a good QOTW. That… didn’t work very well this time; I found myself highlighting whole pages, one after the other. Oops.
The thing is, I really like Sebarial, and when Palona enters the scene, it just gets better. One tidbit I relished was the description of Sebarial’s banner:
It bore the glyphs sebes and laial stylized into a skyeel, deep gold on a black field
combined, a page or so later with Shallan’s reaction to learning of his undertakings:
“You sly eel,” Shallan said. “While the others fight a war, you’ve been building an economy.”
Heh. How fitting. Seriously, though, his description of war – especially this war—is too true: it’s a lot of work, soldiers die, you have to pay their families, and it’s useless all around. So he pays the fines to skip most of his assigned plateau runs, and puts his resources to work positioning himself to gain most of the actual profit from the gemhearts. At that, though, he’s got one of the best-trained armies on the Plains, because whatever he’s doing, he hires the best people to do the job and lets them do it.
This chapter sets up an excellent working relationship between Sebarial, Shallan, and Palona. The trouble is, I don’t remember it developing very much throughout the book. Hopefully, that’s just my mind flaking out on me, because it would be a crying shame to have such a lovely state of affairs and then not use it.
It was unexpectedly kind of Sebarial to point out that, as much as he enjoys her not-traditional-court-manners, she does need to be careful where she aims her wit. She’s playing for much higher stakes now than she ever has before, and retribution for insult here would not only be swift, it might well doom the world. No pressure, though, girl.
I keep wanting to quote big chunks of this chapter. So much delight, especially when they meet Palona. She’s awesome. I’ll give in just a little to my quote-frenzy, and insert my very favorite bit of the whole chapter:
“Bah!” Sebarial said. “Woman, you make me the most henpecked man in all of Alethkar—”
“We aren’t in Alethkar.”
“—and I’m not even storming married!”
“I’m not marrying you, so stop asking,” Palona said, folding her arms, looking Shallan up and down speculatively. “She’s far too young for you.”
Sebarial grinned. “I used that line already. On Ruthar. It was delightful—he sputtered so much, you could have mistaken him for a storm.”
I’ll… just shut up and let you enjoy that in all its scrumptiousness.
Anyway, Palona not only assures Shallan that she will get the stipend implied, she also—without any sentimental gloop—simply, completely, and matter-of-factly makes her welcome. Shallan gets a little excited about running water, which she saw for the first time in Kharbranth (and which tells us a little about the state of development in rural Jah Keved); Palona’s response makes me smile every time:
“Welcome to civilization. I trust you left your club and loincloth at the door.”
Civilization. On the Shattered Plains. Heh.
Stormwatch: Yup. Same day as Chapters 35-38. Still going…
All Creatures Shelled and Feathered: Hogs. Just a reminder, in case you were worried: yes, Roshar does have bacon. And Sebarial farms the hogs to provide real, un-Soulcast bacon to the armies.
I wonder if you can Soulcast bacon? Betcha can’t.
Okay, so we haven’t actually seen bacon on Roshar, but if they haven’t figured it out yet, I’m very disappointed in them. In any case, we have not only hog farms, but lavis and tallew, which an enterprising highprince with the right assortment of engineers and farmers can make totally viable even out here on the somewhat desolate edge of the Shattered Plains.
Heraldic Symbolism: This one was fairly straightforward. I think. Kalak is logical in his role as Maker, which suits Sebarial’s activities to a T. I find humor in noticing that Kalak’s traditional “body focus,” the nails, are also the key for Shallan to identify Palona’s ethnic background – Herdazian, with their “rocklike cast” to the fingernails. (I think it would be totally awesome and hilarious if Sebarial turns out to be a Willshaper…) Vedeledev may not be quite so obvious, but I do think Palona plays a role as Healer for Shallan; it’s also hinted that perhaps Sebarial played a healing – or at least rescuing – role for Palona herself.
Words of Radiants:
That they responded immediately and with great consternation is undeniable, as these were primary among those who would forswear and abandon their oaths. The term Recreance was not then applied, but has since become a popular title by which this event is named. —From Words of Radiance, chapter 38, page 6
This comes in the in-world book (with the possibility of a few intervening sentences) immediately after the epigraph of our Chapter 38, with its discovery of “some wicked thing of eminence.”
Frustratingly, it leaves open at least two possibilities: that they abandoned their oaths due to some perceived betrayal by the spren, or due to some perceived betrayal within the organization of the Knights Radiant.
The former seems more logical to me, since their actions severed them from their spren bonds, leaving their spren dead in sword-form forever. My current best guesses on this would be: discovery of a bonded spren (and Knight) turning to Odium; learning of the Odium-spren bonds of the Parshendi; or a spren posing as “normal” which deceived, bonded, and twisted a human. I still can’t help thinking about the Unmade in this context, but we have some strong indications that the Unmade have been around far longer than this.
It’s possible, however, that the Knights Radiant didn’t realize the effect that abandoning their oaths would have on the spren, and their action was intended to be a protest against something within the Radiants rather than destructive of their spren. I have a hard time imagining what could happen to make these fully-bonded Knights, who presumably knew their spren very well, choose to deliberately lock those spren into sword forms and a sort of living death.
Well, presumably we’ll learn more eventually, and in the meantime we can speculate all we want.
Shipping Wars: This ship needs no help at all, but let me just say once again how much I love Sebarial and Palona. They’re priceless. (For everything else, there’s MasterCard… and he’ll take any form of payment.)
Just Sayin’: The only one that caught my eye this time was “Winds know…” At that, I almost missed it because of the context:
Palona smiled. “Winds know, you’re not the first stray he’s brought home. Some of us even end up staying.
Aww. I want to know that story.
There. That ought to keep us busy until next week, when Kaladin returns to the chasms, this time to train in earnest.
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader. She would like to take this opportunity to remind all WorldCon members to do your reading and voting for the Hugo awards; for the rest of you, she’d like to encourage you all to become WorldCon members and then do the reading and voting. Team Sanderson intends to be present in force, and if you come too, please look for Wetlander at Registration. She’d love to meet you in person.
Alice,I also liked this chapter. It shows that in all the death and destruction of war there still is humor, and profits.
I wonder how much of the story was “left on the cutting room floor.” The fact that the book just fits the max pages that can be bound leads me to think there might have more that a little cutting.
I wonder if we could get Brandon to do a “Director’s Cut” in an e-book format, which should not have page number constraints. Of course this should be AFTER he finishes book 3!
Long time lurker first time poster….just wanted to say how much I look forward to this post every week. Shallan is definitely my fav character this book and I love this chapter and how sweet sebariel and Polona are at making her a home away from home
I remember that Shallan’s decision not to accept an employment with Kholins and foisting herself on Sebarial filled me with aprehension re: a possible side-plot(d) of doom. I am still not sure that her reasoning entirely made sense, and it was a bit too convenient that he unexpectedly turned out to be so awesome. Of course, Shallan had to be free to engage in Ghostblood-related hijincks, but it all still seems a bit contrived to me. YMMV.
Speaking of which – here is to hoping that Sebarial’s business initiatives did pay off already, because the poor man is about to lose all his infrastructure on the Plains. A clever plan, that. One has to wonder how Sebarial managed to keep his lands given the war-worship and “dog-eats-dog” mentality of the Alethi culture, however. Gavilar’s unification, less-than-optimal as it was, could have helped with it, of course. There is still some fighting back home, though, and given his projected persona, Sebarial’s lands would look tempting.
Also – are we supposed to think that he had never been married and has no children? That wouldn’t make sense given his age, IMHO.
Oh, and Palona is adorable, of course. These Herdazians are everywhere and they seem to be uniformely great so far.
Jasnah’s complete misjudgement of Sebarial (and some of the other princes, IIRC), shows some of her blind spots and weaknesses and makes me wonder about possible fateful mistakes made during her tenure as the family’s spy-and-assassin mistress. Her feud with the Ghostbloods could well turn out to be something along these lines…
Since Alice mentioned hog farming in her commentary, I wonder what the Rosharian equivalent of our (at least American) cliche of “tastes like chicken”. Would somebody on Roshar say “tastes like soul cast food” or “tastes like chull”?
Alice, as a new section of your commentary, you could list the local cuisine or culinary habits. There are only so many different shipping possibilities.
I agree. Sebarial is not a typical Alethi. I think most Lighteyes would believe that when Sebarial dies, Sebarial’s skills (especially his lack of military skills) would not be much use in the battle for the Tranquiline Halls. In reality, those Alethi would be quite mistaken. Every successful army needs a good quartermaster. Sebarial would make a very good quartermaster — if he could keep his thievery to a minimum.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
I’m still sticking with my pet Recreance theory. A Bondsmith realized that he/she could sever all Voidbringer spren bonds, but only by severing ALL Nahel bonds on Roshar. And he/she pulled the trigger.
I have to agree with your assessment of Sebarial, Alice. He (and Palona) are just plain awesome. Shallan does end up doing a bunch of work for them (specifically, cleaning up their bookkeeping), but that happens mostly off-screen and/or without us seeing their interaction directly.
In my opinion, Jasnah’s misjudgement of Sebarial says more about Sebarial’s acting ability than it does about Jasnah’s perceptiveness. He’s deliberately trying to make people underestimate him, and, especially if Jasnah is only out on the Shattered Plains infrequently, I don’t think she should be expected to see through the ruse. It reminds me of one of Adolin’s duels, actually – the one that he intentionally keeps close in order to make it more of a show. Sadeas was watching, and was impressed with Adolin’s ability to be in complete control the entire time while still making the bout appear close.
radiantflower – Welcome! Love the username. :) Stay with us and jump in for the chat.
Isilel – don’t forget that Sebarial’s army is still one of the best trained, even though he keeps them out of fighting as much as possible. I don’t think he’s so focused on his commercial activities that he’d be unaware of the need to protect his investments with military force when needed. I agree, though – it would be a bummer to have him lose everything with the Everstorm and the move to Urithiru. I get the impression from this chapter that it had already paid off to the point that the smarter of the highprinces realize what he’s done – i.e. that they’re buying most of their goods from him. I have to wonder, too… Sebarial strikes me as the kind of guy who, having made it work here, would just shrug at the loss and start over for the sheer fun of making it work. I guess we’ll have to wait and see.
AndrewHB – we actually have a recurring unit for Rosharan cuisine; it just hasn’t come up very much. Carl created it a few months ago. :)
I, too, really like Sebarial and Palona, and I was disappointed at the end of my last reread when I realized how little of them we actually got.
I agree with @3 that Shallan’s risks end up paying off way too much. She keeps doing all these totally insane things, and they all work. Now, I don’t mind too much, since I like it when things go well for the heroes, but the first time through I kept waiting for the other shoe to drop, and it never really did.
Isilel @3: Not all Herdazians are great, unfortunately — Kabsal is an example of a not-so-great one.
Sebarial – the Breeze of this series. Love him. Palona has great possibilities too. I hope we see more of them both in the next few books.
Even if he does represent the Industrial Military complex of Roshar. But it is good to know there is industry. I really want to know what type of plants produce the textiles. Since the landscape is not friendly to our type of silk or cotton.
I rather hope Sebarial and Palona do not become Radiants. I want them to be great without a spren. Because we need cool side characters that are just cool in their own right.
It rather is scary that her salary of 3 emerald broms a week will support… a dozen people? How many is Shallan supporting?
@8 and @9, Kabsal is also a good example of a risk Shallan took/was preparing to take that didn’t pay off so well for her.
I’m generally an audiobook ‘reader’, and Michael Kramer and Kate Reading do a fabulous job. But one of the best features are the Australian accents Michael does for all the Herdazians (as well as Wayne in Alloy of Law). Somehow, Lopin as an Herdazian just…fits. Palona (typically voiced by Kate, as she’s in Shallan chapters) has a much subtler Australian accent.
Braid_Tug @10 – She has eighteen soldiers and five slaves to pay, plus the lady’s maid Palona will find for her. Good thing she set her stipend high!
Now I’m going to have to go figure out how much she has to pay out. Five slaves at six firemarks/week, and eighteen soldiers at… how much do soldiers get paid, again? *sigh* Must do research, unless someone beats me to it.
The Epigraph(s)
It’s tempting to take the epigraphs for chapters 38 and 40 as a contiguous entity. If I do, then I get the idea that the Windrunners were primary among those who forswore their oaths. That’s likely a dangerous assumption because any intervening paragraphs could switch the context dramatically. Brandon wouldn’t misdirect like that, would he? rossnewberry @5: Your last sentence will fill an entire Brandon-book, regardless of what trigger was pulled. The next epigraph (IIRC) suggests there was some internal strife between the orders before the Recreance. Is that reliable info? Were they fighting about whether or not to pull the trigger? I don’t interpret Dalinar’s Recreance vision that way.
Braid_Tug @10
Shallan is responsible for 5 slaves and 16 (I think) soldiers. It’s hard to put “3 emerald broams per week” in perspective. Is that equivalent to making 25k per year in the US or something more substantial like 100k or even 500k?
You know, I’ve never felt Shallan’s trusting people and taking risks based on that trust is too convenient. Although, as someone who feels G.R.R.Martin has his characters pay too large a price for trusting people, I might be more willing to turn a blind eye than most.
What I really enjoy is the game Sebarial has played against the unsuspecting other Highprinces. For them to still think he is an oaf and a fool when he has clearly leveraged himself better than anyone save Sadeas, and with much greater subtlety (finer subtlety?). He reminds me of Falstaff, the fool who knows what’s really going on better than anyone else, making you wonder, is he really a fool? In this case, we quite clearly have an answer.
I completely forgot that Kabsal was Herdazian. Now I want to go re-listen to the audio book, I don’t recall him having an accent.
Definitely one of my favorite chapters. As for Jasnah’s info on the high princes, I don’t think it’s so much that she misjudged them (except Sebarial who has everyone fooled) as things have changed dramatically. The Dalinar / Sadeas split has completely changed the political landscape and all this happened after Jasnah’s latest notes. Once Jasnah gets there and sees the new power structure for herself, I’m sure her notes will be updated with far more accurate info. Especially if Shallan fills her in on Sebarial though his situation may be quite different by then too.
jta068 @14
I’m with you on those 3 points.
Did we ever find out what a Herdazian Spark Flicker is? It was mentioned in passing about halfway through WoK. It has something to do with their crystalline fingernails, and my mind is running rampant with weird ideas. The question has been on my list to ask BWS for quite a while, but always far enough down the list that’s it’s never addressed.
And this is one of my fav chapters also.
Soulcast bacon–looks like heaven, tastes like bitter disappointment…
Sebarial is definitely reminds me of Breeze, though between the two, I would say Sebarial is if anything, more honest. He seems more comfortable in his own skin. Sebarial benefits from knowing mercantile economics and actual respect of your employees rather than the machismo chest-thumping of the other High Princes is really the best way to get rich and runs with it.
Breeze actively tried to keep his heart of gold on the down low. People underestimate Sebarial not so much because he hides his intentions, but simply because said machismo makes the others look down on him while they’re still too caught up in their game to figure out that he is the one actually winning). One begins to wonder just what would have happened if he had set his eyes on the throne years prior…
In any case, I look forward to seeing Sebarial interact with Shallan and co in the future.
http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1052#12 Some info on Rosharan textiles.
This was a fun chapter, and definitely a relief after the heavy politics of a couple chapters ago, and Shallan’s flashback from last chapter.
I really like Sebarial and Palona, but I think they’re used about the right amount. If they showed up a bit more, they might start getting annoying when it comes to serious bits like the finale (where they have a hilarious moment, but one I think would be annoying if they were present too often). It also helps they’re introduced with Shallan when she needs a pseudo-family: that gives them a lot of good will when, after last week’s chapter, we get to see Shallan just be warmly welcomed.
Wetlandernw @12
20 Firemarks = 1 Emerald Broam. Six Firemarks/week/slave is going to eat up half of Shallan’s stipend. I think the slaves are overpaid. Since when do slaves get paid anyway?
torDOTcom is much better now than the last couple of weeks, thanks!
Ways @20 – Well, Shallan is being uncommonly generous to her slaves. She offered them six firemarks a week if they agreed to put five toward their slave debt, and one if they didn’t. If she weren’t deliberately helping them get out of debt, she’d be paying one firemark… which is still twice what Kaladin was paid as a bridge slave.
The answer to my earlier question, after much research, is that Shallan is paying out more to her servants & soldiers every week than she’s making from Sebarial. Assuming a) all five slaves took her up on the six-firemarks offer, b) her soldiers get the same as standard darkeyed soldiers in Sadeas’s army (one skymark/week), and c) a lady’s maid gets twice what a soldier gets (which seems dumb, but that’s the way those things often work), Shallan is spending four emerald broams a week to pay her folk. Sure hope there were a lot of extra emeralds in Jasnah’s and Tyn’s trunks…
I wonder if Brandon did that on purpose… although I’ll admit that my brain is a bit muddly tonight, so my maths might be completely weird.
It doesn’t make sense that Sebarial’s bookkeeping is a mess. How can he be an economic genius and not hire a competent bookkeeper?
@22 and 23: I am now enchanted with the idea that Shallan is bad at mathematics (early in TWoK she tells Jasnah she is basically serviceable in it right? But everything afterward was really history and the like…). Although it seems pretty stealthy of Sanderson to slip it in like that.
I’m so used to trusting Sanderson’s writing (since usually he telegraphs things pretty clearly, or with twists it’s something you couldn’t know or the characters didn’t know, not something they are false about), but if any cast would not focus on minor things, it would be this one. Sometimes I wonder if even early on Kaladin does check out Shallan: Kaladin of course sells it as he’s just paranoid and checking her out for weapons, but a few people call him out on it…but it’s just so convincing when he goes “she’s a lighteyes, she’s like a whole other species? Why would I look at her that way?” (paraphrased obviously.)
Then I remember Sanderson co-wrote three books with Mat Cauthon in them, and I wonder…
Lest we forget:
“Is he … standing in there listening?”
Not much to add besides agreeing that this chapter is delightful. I would, however, like to pitch a sit-com in which Sebarial and the Lopen run an internet startup or a fictitious country in Eastern Europe.
Wetlandernw @22
Does Shallan actually have to pay out the extra five firemarks going towards the slaves’ debt? I was assuming since she owns the slaves the slave debt is something owed to her, not something she would have to pay out in order to free the slaves.
If this is the case that’s 25 less firemarks she has to pay out each week.
Kabsal was a Herdazian?! Really? I thought that he was a lighteyes… Didn’t Shallan think about his appearance at some point? Do Herdazians even follow Vorin religion?
And I agree with Jenny @26 – Shallan doesn’t have to pay out the money that goes towards the slaves debt.
I am with those who point out that it makes no sense for Sebarial, who generally hires competent people, and who is going all-in on business enterprise, not to have had good accountants. Also, given the culture, his lack of machismo and perception of weakness_should_ have led to him getting attacked and tested often, even if he dealt with such attempts successfully.
And, again, it had been so important for Sebarial to cultivate his image, yet he let Shallan in on the ruse immediately, even though it most likely meant giving himself away to Kholins too. Of course, he may have been on the cusp of joining them anyway, but if so, it hasn’t been made clear. It all goes under the “a bit too convenient” umbrella, IMHO, but YMMV. I really love most of Shallan’s arc in WoR, but for me this is it’s weak point.
Oh, and Jasnah definitely goofed, if she didn’t notice all that flourishing economy in Sebarial’s holdings – presumably at home too.
@27 and others
I completely forgot Kabsal was a Herdazian, so when I say I don’t recall his eye color, take it with a pinch of copper. I think we can safely assume he was a lighteyes because Shallan said that he would be demoted to the lowest dahn, which is a lighteyes caste. Also, Kaladin mentions that the Herdazians have “their own brand of Vorinism,” when he is training in the chasm earlier in the book.
The book keeping thing got to me too, but I have a theory. It’s pretty out there and I’m not sure I even believe it. I wonder if Sebarial and Palona are worldhoppers. (From Sel, perhaps? Hence the merchant-esque skills.) They could be keeping records in their native language, and while they speak Alethi well, they do not write it as well, hence the mess with the books.
Isilel @27 re not hiring good accountants. Remember that in Alethi society, women keep the books. Palona noted that Sebarial has a habit of picking up strays (as she herself was once). Given that habit, it may be likely that most of the strays (or at least those who stayed) were not educated in the art of keeping ledgers. This could be a reason why his ledgers are a mess. Further, he would not trust the typical Alethi educated lighteye women who may have been able to keep his ledgers current.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Did you hear that WOR won the 2015 Audie Award for Fantasy? Well Done!!!! If you haven’t listened to the audiobook versions of WOK and WOR, you really should. They were my first introduction to Sanderson, and they are brilliantly done.
BTW, hello! I have been lurking in the current Storm Cellar, having discovered Sanderson via WOK 9 months ago. Since then I’ve read/listened to WOK/WOR, followed up with everything else he’s published except the couple of books from this year, yet, and about a month ago started the WOK ReRead on Tor, reading from hardcover and audiobook formats. I didn’t post any comments (I think) on WOK. I started this WOR ReRead about a week ago after finishing the WOK reread. I’ve been adding comments in a few WOR Chapter Rereads as I’ve been going along (Chapter 4, I-4,17,20,26), and also discussing a few burning questions with Wetlandernw ::waving, Hi!:: via messages. I still have about 10 Chapter ReReads to go before I’m all caught up with you-all (I’m from Texas, donchaknow). I’ve enjoyed getting to know all of you and I find this whole reread process FASCINATING. Learning so much about the Cosmere in so short a time has sorta bent my brain a bit, though…
Jenny @@@@@26 – True, she’s essentially paying herself with those 25 firemarks, which works out fairly well because she doesn’t actually need the slaves anyway. With that correction (I’ll blame it on the late hour when I worked that out?) it means she’s only paying out 2.75 emerald broams, and she gets to keep one emerald mark. Which… is better than paying out one more emerald broam than she’s getting. So, okay, not as bad as I was thinking. *whew*
@@@@@several re: Kabsal – Well, Shallan thinks he has “a faint Herdazian accent” and then thinks of him as “a Herdazian ardent” but that doesn’t actually prove he’s Herdazian. Doesn’t prove he’s not, either. As for his light eyes (definitely blue), since the Herdazians don’t necessarily follow Vorinism, it wouldn’t matter to them; as a Vorin ardent, it isn’t supposed to matter either.
Isilel @@@@@27 – “I am with those who point out that it makes no sense for Sebarial, who generally hires competent people, and who is going all-in on business enterprise, not to have had good accountants.” Shallan thinks almost exactly the same thing in a later chapter:
In Chapter 81, Dalinar thinks, “The man himself was practically useless in a battle, but he knew how to hire the right people – and that had always been his genius. Sebarial probably assumed Dalinar didn’t know that.” Presumably, it’s just never occurred to him that keeping track of the money is necessary. To us, it certainly seems odd that he’d even be able to be so good at developing the warcamp’s economy without careful bookkeeping, but there are several factors that may mitigate that:
1) By hiring the best engineers, farmers, craftsmen, and artisans, and letting them do their jobs without micromanagement, he’s got enough spheres coming in that he doesn’t really have to worry about whether he’s got enough to cover expenses.
2) Remember that he’s not starting a business from scratch out of his garage. He had all the resources of his princedom to draw on for any start-up capital that was needed out here. (Think Microsoft start-up – it’s a whole lot easier to get things rolling when you start wealthy.)
3) It’s entirely possible that back home, he wasn’t all that involved in the economy, and it’s merely something he started out here on the Plains. After all, out here there’s nothing to do but fight a stupid war, compete for gemhearts, and annoy the other highprinces. Since only the last of those is actually appealing to him, perhaps he started playing a different game.
Pure speculation, of course. However, it would explain several things, including why his princedom might not be a major target in normal times. And he is Alethi, however atypical, so he’d see the importance of having a well-trained army even if he himself isn’t a fighter.
Sebarial himself explains why he let Shallan in on the ruse – because she, too, wondered why he would tell her all this. He points out that if she’s going to be one of his clerks she’ll see it anyway. Besides, the secrecy doesn’t matter anymore, because he’s got all the manufactories and farms up and running. And the smarter highprinces (which should include Dalinar) have already figured it out, so who is she going to tell?
I find it mildly comforting that Jasnah goofed just a little – except then I have to remind myself that she hasn’t been to the Plains for quite some time, and last time she was here, there might not have been all that much to notice. Oh well.
crapaflapnasti @@@@@28 – Interesting theory… I have a hard time convincing myself, but not for any good reason, other than that it seems like it would be tough for an offworlder to get hold of a highprincedom without anyone noticing.
mnmama @@@@@ 30 – Hi there!! Amazing job catching up, even if you’re not quite all the way caught up. :) It’s even more fun when you can participate in the discussion as it’s happening!
(edited to mark the quote)
@@@@@Wetlandernw, After your very well thought out post, I’m pretty sure my theory is a load of bunk. I do think there is a specific reason Sebarial didn’t hire good clerks, though. Possibly to keep out spies from the other high princes?
@18: Thank you.
I’m with Jenny and others – Shallan is only paying out 1 firemark per slave. Thank you Alice for figuring out her expenditure is 2.75 broams.
Yet, has it been said anywhere what those slaves are doing during the day? Or the soldiers that aren’t on errands for Shallan? The point of slaves is cheap labor. Therefore, Shallan may be “renting” them out for labor and being paid as their owner. Same with the soldiers, but on fairer bargain. So she could be earning more than the 3 emerald broams that Sebarial is paying her.
Maybe Sebarial’s personal books are all out of whack. Each manager of his various industries has a bookkeeper. So at the lower levels everything is in order. But Sebarial drops the ball on his personal household account, or when it comes to adding all the wealth of his enterprise together. He would not be the first idea man who sucks with money. Especially on the large scale.
Or Sanderson just wrote that so it seems like Shallan is actually needed by Sebarial.
@33 Braid_Tug: best reasoning yet. Combine yours with WetlanderNW and it all makes sense. He has the capital to self-sustain, so the money coming in is simply increase in capital. How much? He sure doesn’t know. All he cares is that those who make him the money keep bringing him the money. As long as his troops are trained and accommodated, he’s good. It also makes sense that he’s never had light eyes female in his house to do exactly what Shallan does.
Always interesting to check in with the reread comments on one part, then return half a day later to see it all resolved (or getting there).
Looking at Shallan’s comment on the ledger, I wonder if maybe the opposite was going on: Sebarial was making sure all the money was being tracked, but he never had a clerk specifically go in and organize it all/condense it to be neater. Plus there might be a small amount of sentimental value to each, ridiculous as that seems: Sebarial is proud of his accomplishments, and those transactions are a part of it.
Although if that is the case I don’t think it’s the main reason why the books are so overgrown and messy: as Wetlandernw showed above, Sebarial can have several good reasons for not keeping precise, clean records of the money flow.
@35: One of which would be to hide the fact that he is creating a new economy (and getting a lot of money from it) from the other highprinces and their spies. Sebarial wouldn’t want competition (sharing the market lowers profits) and messy books help hide what he is really doing.
@36: Yup, although I’m not sure how big a danger that would be – I expect we’d have to see a meeting of the highprinces’ wives for that kind of espionage action.
And some good news for the Stormcellar: http://brandonsanderson.com/calamity-is-done/
The part that jumps out to me (besides June 15 as when Sanderson hopes to start Stormlight 3), is this:
Lift’s Interlude helped tide me over before Words of Radiance was released, and this sounds similar, so HYPE.
@37 A novella either a 2016 release date could be fun but fast as he is it would still end up slowing down some project or another.
I’m honestly not sure I’d rather have the full sized SA just a few weeks sooner tha b get that between devour it in a day then have to wait an additional quarter for the the next major entry.
Oh I have an idea: someone here should build a time machine so the rest of us can have our cakes and eat them too please.
I’m guessing that if he decides to do the novella-length story, it would either be something he wants to write, but doesn’t fit into the book well, or something he decides would be a fun break once he finishes the first or second draft. Might be that once he turns the draft over to his editor, he’ll take a break by writing this story. I just tend to doubt that he’d delay the SA3 process to give us a novella – he’s more likely to squeeze it into one of the occasional holes that the process allows. JMO.
Oh so interesting… Should we speculate on which side character will be the star of the novella?
And he always has down time on the big books while the beta readers and editors have it. As Alice knows. ;-D
So that’s when he plays with the smaller items. Like Alice said, it might already be in his head, but doesn’t fit.
Who: I want more back story on Lopen or Rock.
Yet I do wonder, if he gives us a novella, will we get as many preview chapters as we did for book 2? 1/4 of the book was up on Tor.com before release day! Don’t get me wrong. That was awesome!
Just wondering if they would do that again if we had a novella.
For my part, I think Szeth story arc would fit nicely within a novel. From my point of vue, he seems geared towards a path steering him away from the main characters. Since I feel putting a too strong emphasis on Szeth can only come to the detriment of our current main cast, I do think he is a good candidate for a side novel. I want to keep on reading about our current 4, but I understand the need to develop other characters. A side novel seems like a very, very, very good idea. Especially since Szeth’s present time story arc most likely has little to do with Kaladin, Shallan, Adolin and Dalinar, it would not spoil much of the action, but tease us enough to keep us waiting. Also, with Kaladin being in Heartstone, Jasnah being somewhere and the rest being in Urithiru, putting a spot on Szeth and/or Eshonai as well would scatter the actions into 4/5 places which would be harder to wrap us nicely. Besides, I know there are many fans who wishes to read more about Szeth, so this would give them satisfaction.
Hence, I am voting for Szeth.
Other candidates would be Jasnah or Eshonai. Jasnah may be too spoilery and I sorta hope she will join back the main crew within the next book. I also know Brandon already wrote a side novel on Jasnah’s adventures in Shadesmar, but he will not, unfortunately, publish it.
Eshonai could be interesting as well. I can see potential in a side novel dedicated to her, but it may be too soon.
IMO, the side character would be Rysn. That would give Brandon the chance to explore more of Roshar where the action does not take place. The novella could also provide us with more information and characteristics of the larkin. Finally, I think it would be fascinating to get her perspective on the after effects of the first Everstorm. Also, if the story went on long enough, we could get her reaction when it comes around for a second time.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
So far, I’m not on board with any of the suggestions for a likely “side character” novella subject except maybe Lopen or Rock. Szeth, Eshonai, and Jasnah are too directly involved in the main story arc to fit with my interpretation of what he’s likely to do. Rysn is closer, but he’s been using her as a long-Interlude character, and I don’t see him changing that.
Here are a few that would fit the bill, IMO:
-Gawx, the Azish thief now named Prime Aqasix
-Redin, bastard son of Highprince (& briefly King) Valam of Jah Keved
-Moash, now on his way to parts unknown (likely Jah Keved) with Graves
-Amaram, going… somewhere… with “Taln”
Those seem like stories that could be told without giving spoilers for the main story, but still be interesting in their own right. I seriously doubt he’ll do a novella for one of the future flashback characters, though it’s faintly possible.
Thinking on those lines rather than more major (first or second-tier) characters, who else can you come up with?
(As I said, Lopen or Rock would be possible, though I think they’re less likely simply because they’re right there in Urithiru with all the action. Unless, of course, he wanted to do a back-story on one of them, which opens up the possibilities considerably.)
Actually, I see Szeth and Eshonai as too separate from the main plot to fit within the major story arc, except through the occasional POV or interlude. Expanding on them can only come at the cost of one of the other character and since so much is going on in Urithiru… I think we should not reject them as possibilities.
However, I do love the idea of Reddin… especially since he has now become my number one candidate for a Dustbringer. We do need one of those and since Adolin is now out of the loop, we do need someone else to fit within those shoes.
I would love a back story on Teft or Rock as a side novella….also Lopen or more Herdazians would be grea
Gepeto @45 – Since Szeth and Eshonai, along with Dalinar (in unknown order) are the flashback characters for books 3, 4, and 5, I cannot possibly see them as “side characters.” That doesn’t mean Brandon might not decide to tell a story about one of them that he’d like to tell but doesn’t want to include in the flashback sequence; by the time he gets to writing the novella, he’ll have all three flashback sequences mapped out or completely written, so he’d know if there’s another story in there. Unlike you, though, I see Szeth and Eshonai as integral parts of the story Brandon is telling, and I’m pretty confident we’ll see them becoming more deeply involved as we go.
@44: This is probably a little far-fetched, but as was stated in the reread, a backstory for the relationship between Palona and Sebarial would be great. It could give insight into Gavilar and Dalinar’s conquest of the other highprinces and the beginnings of the war with the Parshendi.
Vathah – He intrigues me. “Tall, bearded … arms that looked too long for his body”. He reminds me of Kaladin. Really. We don’t know anything about his backstory, but he is a strong leader, he cares for his men (they are well supplied, physically healthy, he listens to them, and he doesn’t force his will on them). If Kaladin and his men had escaped the camps as planned, I could see him joining up with this man’s group. Kaladin, I think, would have gotten along well with him, after he kicked Gaz around a bit. And, even though he didn’t fall for Shallan’s Illusion/whatever, he did take the rest of his men and go help the fight. I think its a very good thing that Kaladin didn’t escape way back when, because I think we see what he would have become in Vathah, if he had. I’d like a backstory on him.
Yalb – such an engaging character, but so mysterious. And I agree, Teft or Rock.
Reya, the mysterious mythical star-maiden.
Axies – need I say more, unless it turns out he’s a Herald or going to be a KR. I’m unsure about that as yet, but I’m hopeful.
Or an exploration of the Makabakam Silver Kingdom. I want to know more about this Area. Grump and Blunt, the world-hoppers, are described as Makabaki. The male KR in Dalinar’s first vision is too. Baxil’s mistress is somewhat Makabakian. Nale and mad ‘Talenel’ are described as Makabakian, too. Yes, I want to know more because there’s something special about that one very large Silver Kingdom – and now it’s broken into 11 1/2 sub-Kingdoms (all of which maintain that single ethnicity). Sesemalex Dar is one of the Dawn Cities in the ‘Makabaki region’ that seems to be the source of the conflict between Tukari and Emuli that Dalinor discusses with Hatham and sly ardent Au-nak at the King’s feast in WOK chapter 54. And it’s the city the catches Kaladin’s attention during his first HighStorm surf. The city could be considered a ‘character’ maybe? Makabakian Sigzil in his home town.
Or (and I’m finally finished!) The myth of Parasaphi, who searched out the seedstones to repopulate her fallen people after the Desolations. She found the stones touched by the Heralds, which hatched 10 children to found the new Makabaki people. Hmmm, 10 again. WOK p859.
Did he specify if the novel would happen in the past time or in the present time? In other words, is the story additional flashbacks/backstory or just a main arc plot not quite fitting within the rest?
By the end of WoR, both Szeth and Eshonai are evolving far away from the rest of the cast and both characters have appeared only through interludes (correct me if I am wrong, but I do not recall seeing their POV outside the interludes). As a reader, I thus see them as side characters as opposed to main ones. Now, of course, Brandon may very well see things differently, which means we are simply arguing on terminology here.
Therefore, since both characters will presumably (and yes of course Brandon may have other plans, but so far this is how things appear to pan out) remain on their own for the next book, I thus see their story arc being removed form SA3 and packaged into a novella. The fact they do have planned flashbacks do not change things. The novella could focus on the present time and not the past time, thus the flashbacks can still happen as planned. I still think it would work, but I am not Brandon, so what I think surely do not matter for other purposes than pure speculation.
In any advent, I think the idea of this novella is a very good one, no matter who it focuses on.
All he said on the subject was:
Apparently, he mentioned Lopen and Lift on Reddit… I do not know how valid this information is, I was just made aware of it. I figured it would please many fans though I personally dislike Lopen, so mew for me. As for Lift, she is awesome, but a whole book revolving around a 13 years old girl? I am not sold on the idea, but I will have to wait and see.
I wonder how Sebarial gets along with his ardents? Seeing as he doesn’t seem to believe the (stupid) traditions of mainstream Vorinism about violence being the highest Callings.
Sebarial as a Willshaper … acutally makes a surprising amount of sense given what little we know about the Order. I don’t get the sense that Sebarial and Palona are going to become major characters, though, so I doubt he’ll be a Knight unless we also have a much more prominent character who’s in the same Order as him.
What are the indications of the Unmades’ age? And why are they called the “Unmade,” anyway?
@1: I think you meant, “AFTER he finishes Book 10!”
@3: I think the book is dark enough without having Sebarial’s hospitality turn out to be a nasty surprise subplot. I do agree with you about being curious what pressures society put on Sebarial to marry in his earlier years. Is he a widower, or was he always such a maverick that he didn’t care what society said?
Ways@13: Actually, the Windrunners taking the lead initiating the Recreance makes good sense. (a) because they were the “leadership” Order, and (b) because Dalinar sees them (and the Stonewardens) abandoning their Shards at Feverstone Keep.
@16: Sounds like it might have something to do with firemoss?
Count me among those who have no problem with Sabarial being a genius city planner but a terrible accountant. CEO and CFO can be very different jobs.
@27: Why is a lighteyes Herdazian strange? It’s not a Western kingdom where everyone is darkeyed; it’s actually (north)east of Jah Kaved. It’s “sort of” Vorin. I imagine they have lighteyes like anyone.
@27: I’ve heard the theory of Sebarial and Palona being worldhoppers before. Because they just seemed so unconcerned with the battle on the Plains. But … I don’t think that’s reason enough. Roshar is perfectly capable of producing eccentrics all on its own. :) Also, I don’t think any other Cosmereworlds have ethnic Herdazians (although I suppose the fingernails could be disguised).
As far as minor characters for novellas … I hope he just writes the main book instead. ;-) Although Rock’s backstory would be a welcome surprise. (More information about Horneaters and their birth order traditions, Rock’s antipathy to fighting, the Shardpools on the Peaks …)
Helaran is another “side character” that I’d be ok with — lots of questions about him.
For those saying Szeth and Eshonai are “too far out of the action” to continue to be main characters … remember, Roshar has the possibility of becoming a lot smaller really quickly, if they can just get some more Oathgates working. Shinovar could be next door to Urithiru any day now … which I actually think is pretty likely, because there are plenty of hints that it’s about to become the center of a lot of action. Book 3 possibly being named Stones Unhallowed. Nalan sending Szeth there on a mission of vengeance. 6 or 7 of the Honorblades being there in the care of the Shamanate — just when Syl, and possibly many other characters, are turning their attention towards learning what the Honorblades are all about.
As for Eshonai, she’s kind of Odium’s “general” at this stage. I think he’ll have ways for her to travel the world pretty efficiently.
Anyway, I think neither of these could ever be considered “side characters” considering they’re going to be flashback feature characters in the next 3 books.
@49: People in Roshar just assume anyone with dark skin is Makabakam.
@52: I like Lopen, and I even hope he’ll become a Knight rather than just one of Kaladin’s stormlight-using squires. But even then, I don’t see him as good material for a flashback feature character. :-/
This talk of a possible novella next spring is making me nervous. A novella is a more work intensive effort than a short story and is bound to slow the work on the 3rd SA book. As it is, its projected completion date is the end of next year. That means that, at best, there will be a nearly 3 year hiatus between the 2nd and 3rd books of the series to go with the nearly 4 year hiatus between the 1st and 2nd. That is long waiting time for a projected 10 book series. Some of us may not be in a position to be reading many more books in the series at this rate. Rather than writing a novella based on a ‘minor’ character, why not release some chapters as they are written? In that way, the work won’t be slowed and may even benefit from some reader input. I doubt that JK Rowlings would have sustained the intense interest among youth in her Harry Potter series if she had not fed that interest by publishing the 7 installments on an annual basis. Adults may be more patient, but there is a limit.
Another concern is that the many side writing projects and touring take much time from serious and effective story telling. The latter may suffer in consequence. That is my subjective judgment about WOR vs. WOK. The latter’s ending flowed well from its antecedents and was very satisfying. In WOR, too many strange things happen at the end. Szeth is resurrected, Jasnah – despite all appearances, did not die, and Adolin just up and kills Sadeas. The interactions between the principle characters, Kaladin, Shallan, and Dalinar are also minimal at the end. The impression that I have is that the author rushed the ending to meet time and/or space limitations. Hopefully, my analysis is unfair and not germane to the 3rd installment. As it stands, this installment will likely be decisive in my deciding whether or not to continue my interest. As an aside, I was introduced to fantasy fiction by the LOTR trilogy in movie and book form, and further encouraged by a son who presented me with the series on Garion by David Eddings. I read that as a completed series including all the side novels or novellas involving other characters. This son won’t start the Stormlight Archive series since it has a very lengthy and indefinite time frame. I suspect that there are many potential readers with this mindset. The way to minimize their numbers is to publish the installments in an expeditious manner.
@54 STBLST: For any other author I would agree, but Sanderson has always said it helps him to hop from work to work, and while doing so he’s kept up his prodigious pace. Plus as Wetlandernw and others have said, this wouldn’t be cutting into his time for book 3: it’d be during his downtime. If he needs to write a novella to keep himself going while working on SA3 (and really, a work of this size and scope must be exhausting to some degree), I think he should go ahead.
Although I do somewhat agree with you on how busy the ending of Words of Radiance is – a lot of different things happen, and we end on the scene of the four Knight Radiants-to-be…yet they don’t really feel together yet. But that works for me: this is only book 2 of 5, and it shows how even if more characters have been brought together, there’s still no true unity to their purpose. That’s my two cents on the matter anyways.
As for who I would want the novella to focus on…I’m going to be weird and say not anyone in Bridge 4, at least not yet – I want to get a bit more from them in book 3 first, before any side stories or flashbacks. This also goes for Shallan’s men – I’m interested in Vathah and Gaz, but I want to see a bit more of them (at least have them share something with Shallan) before we’d get something separate. So…I’m not really sure what character I would want to see. I agree with people who want someone not in Urithiru (so no Zahel, although I really want to know why he’s missing a certain important sword…although maybe said sword will chat with its new master about that). So…well I’ve cut out so many options for myself…actually yeah, I’ll go with Redin. Because I would like to see where he goes after the Interlude with him later on – he’s a character we haven’t seen much of, but what we’ve already seen suggests a lot of depth.
@54: I was my understanding Brandon would not delay the release of SA3 to write a novella, but he might do so, in the dead time in between the first draft and the final version which may include some down time for him. I may be wrong of course and I do share your complains about the long time delay between SA books. I to think 3 years is too much and will end up in my disinterest as well if he keeps it at this pace. After all, I have lost nearly all interest in GoT despite having a good series to watch: it just takes too long to get a follow-up. I do not know why Brandon delayed for so long the writing of SA3. I do not know why he pushed to finish the Reckoners and 2 Mistborns novels before tacking SA3. I understand his creative process requires him downtime in between tomes, but it still feels too long for me. I respect his creative process, but interest in SA will dwindle if he does not speed it up for the next books. He promised a 1.5 to 2 years gap for the next books: I am horribly disappointed to see he has not even try to meet it. I am still wondering on how to keep my interest high for another year and a half without any new material. There still is the occasional WoB, but these rarely tackled into areas I am personally interested in. Sadly.
In any advent, if he does not delay SA3 for the novella, then it is an excellent idea, no matter who it focuses on.
I also felt the ending of WoR was rushed and I do fear Brandon may end suffering the same fate as previous epic fantasy authors: spreading itself among too many characters and forgetting who his readers want to really read about. All authors seem to go into the same phase where they start to focus on previously secondary characters and forget too much those who draw the readers to begin with. I see much danger here, especially since Brandon keeps on naming minor characters are future major ones, which makes me wonder what will happen with my actual characters. Hopefully, these are just silly fears and Brandon will prove me wrong with SA3.
@53: When I said “too far away”, I did not only imply away in terms of physical distance, but in terms in character proximity. Szeth and Eshonai will most likely not interact much with the remaining of the crew (unless Brandon has other plans, but the ending of WoR does not suggest it). It thus means they will indeed be “far away”, so any chapter spent on them is one chapter I won’t be reading about Kaladin, Shallan, Adolin or Dalinar. The sad truth is these are the characters I selfishly want to read about as they are the ones that drew me to SA. Therefore if Brandon decides Adolin is out of the story to favor Szeth: I may end up reading SA.
Of course the notion of “side characters” widely differs. As a reader, I have read two books and in these two books, the characters named Szeth and Eshonai are secondary ones. So when the authors calls for “side characters”, I do put them in the lot as they are not, currently, major ones, no matter what plans Brandon may or may not have for them, but I still feel an author should not refer to characters with two POV within 2000 pages as major ones to his fans…. Again, this may simply be a matter of perception.
@54: Actually, the Harry Potter series didn’t come out consistently annually. ;-) She missed 2001, 2002, 2004, and 2006.
STBLST @54 – You’re thinking too “assembly line” here. If you’re making widgets and gadgets in your factory, with a widget requiring 2 hours and a gadget requiring 4, in any given day you can choose to make 4 widgets, two gadgets, or 2 widgets and one gadget. The output of your factory in a week is some combination of widgets and gadgets, and the relative number of each depends solely on where you chose to assign the factory hours.
Writing doesn’t work that way. The effort involved in writing a Stormlight book instead of a Reckoners book, for example, is not merely quantitative. He may have an average “number of productive words per day” he can track, but the different styles of writing use different aspects of his skills, and he needs to be able to stress-and-relax those different aspects in order to keep functioning.
The side writing projects don’t “take away from” the more “serious and effective storytelling” – they make it possible. Last time I heard (with my actual ears) someone ask him why he keeps writing these other things instead of getting on with Stormlight 3, he said, “But if I didn’t work on all those other things, you really wouldn’t get Stormlight 3 any faster, and it might not be as good.” If he tried to work on nothing but Stormlight books, we’d probably get them at 4-year minimum intervals, and the writing/storytelling would get stale on top of it.
While I do understand the concern with mortality and the distant completion of a series (I seriously doubt I’ll be beta-reading any more by the time he gets to Dragonsteel; I may not last long enough to finish out the SA!) I think we have a choice. We can either refuse to read anything new except for stand-alone books, or we can take our chance on truly epic fantasy, and enjoy it as long as it lasts we last.
@54, 58, Jim Butcher’s productivity was noticeably affected when he finished his secondary series (the Codex Alera). Like Sanderson, he needed time to recharge the batteries he used for his primary series (Dresden Files). He’s said the best way to do it is by writing something else. So even though I don’t know if I’ll like Butcher’s new series, I’m glad to see it. It might cut the time between Dresden novels back down to a year or so.
And, of course, Sanderson could start writing a novella but end up writing SA 4 instead.
noblehunter @59 – “And, of course, Sanderson could start writing a novella but end up writing SA 4 instead.”
BAHAHAHAHAHahahahah! Too true. :)
Here’s a direct quote on writing all those “side stories”:
(This question didn’t pick up well on my recorder, but it was something about why he has so many series going on at once instead of finishing one of them.)
BWS: A couple of reasons. The main one is that it’s the way I stay fresh as a writer, I find that I get burned out on things. Another main one is that I feel if I’m not practicing different styles, I’ll get into a rut, and my writing will repeat itself. It’s kind of like a philosophical reason and an instinctual one. I tell people who are annoyed that I’m not writing Stormlight that you wouldn’t get Stormlight any faster if I weren’t writing these other books in between – you might get it more slowly, because it’s working on other things that really rejuvenates me as a writer. So I would be writing at a Rothfuss speed if I weren’t jumping between things.
@53 McKay,B: I won’t belabor this past a final comment. Makabakam doesn’t exist anymore, and hasn’t for, what, 4500 years? Now there are 11 kingdoms instead of one, none of them named Makabakam.
So why does everyone still have Makabaki on the tips of their tongues to describe anyone with dark skin? We don’t describe Joe as a ‘dark-skinned Aksumian’ (the North African kingdom of approximately 4350 years ago), we say ‘a dark-skinned Ethiopian.’ Shallan states “there weren’t people with light eyes in the Makabaki region, although they had kings”. This seems odd. I searched both SA books and the only people described as Makabakian in the current time-frame are: Blunt and Grunt (world-hoppers), 3 Heralds: “Shalash”, Nale, and “Talenel”, and Sigzil – Wit’s apprentice and a Worldsinger. In addition, Dalinar had a vision set in the past which included a Makabaki KR. That’s it, in both books.
What’s so memorable about Makabakam now, 4500 years later, that it remains part of the common vocabulary describing a region and a description of a person? And those persons are fairly unique in context.
This just screams HINT to me.
My last comment (@54) was just me venting my frustration at the slowness of the SA outputs thus far. Obviously, the writer’s pace can’t and shouldn’t be dictated by outsiders. I still consider, however, that writing a novella will likely prolong the waiting period for the 3rd SA installment. I assume that a novella goes through the same editing process as his novels. That means that his team of alpha, beta, and gamma reviewers will have this task, as well. While Sanderson’s writing is a creative rather than an assembly line process, it does appear to involve a team effort. Perhaps, however, a few months or half year additional waiting time would be compensated by a more creative rewrite effort. In any case, if Peter is listening, could we have some more SA3 tidbits to tide us over once Brandon gets back to actually writing some additional SA3 material – say, submitting a completed draft version of that Kaladin chapter?
@60, Gotta love the shot at Pat. I really enjoy the back-and-forth between these two writers.
I have ZERO problem with palate cleansing work. There isn’t a creative profession out there that doesn’t require a respite. The fact that Brandon’s “respites” are to write more, just different, is to our benefit as his consumers.
And to go back to his own reference, Pat Rothfuss released an amazing little novella featuring a secondary character that absolutely blew me away. I would expect nothing less from Brandon.
The more I think about the novella, the more I think Brandon will use it like an extended Interlude. And do one of two things:
1) Show us a new person, in a different part of Rhoshar, around the time of the second storms impact. We will get to see fall out from the two storms in book 3. But it would be interesting to visit another location that wouldn’t be address in the main narrative.
OR (Thanks jta068 for mentioning Rothfuss already)
2) Do like Rothfuss did, and give us a “Days in the life of (name here).” Someone who is interesting, but does not impact the main narrative. Imagine what he could do with random solider from Bridge 17 or 9. Visit their training and how it changes their outlook.
But any direction he goes, it will be worth reading.
@62: STBLST, you are starting to belabor the point too much (IMO). I seriously hesitated in starting a new epic series that would take years. However, Sanderson is the fastest writer of epic fantasy that I can think of currently. He could dash off a novella in the time it takes his Alpha readers to go over 15 chapters. He basically finished Calamity during two plane flights!
Let’s all be thankful that he is not GRRM or Rothfuss slow.
Re: process of a novella – From a beta/gamma reader’s perspective, there’s a vast difference in an epic thousand-page novel and a 150-page novella. It took us six-eight weeks to beta WoR, and that was under much tighter time constraints than he would have liked. Gamma went somewhat faster, but it has a larger set of readers nitpicking it. Perfect State or Shadows for Silence, by contrast, take an individual reader a matter of a few days to get through, either beta or gamma.
Aside from being shorter, a novella is much less complex than an epic novel. It doesn’t take the same level of detailed cross-referencing to check for consistency – and if it’s truly a side character, there’s not all that much to check. If he were to do something like Braid_Tug suggested, and pick someone in… say, Hearthstone, and give us their perspective on the arrival of the Everstorm, there would be very little external consistency-checking involved. Also, because of the lower complexity, he doesn’t need as large a pool of readers, and can go with a very short turn-around with whoever is available – or even skip from alpha to gamma, depending on how thoroughly his alpha group can go through it. He could also use a completely different set of beta and gamma readers, if he needed to run it in parallel with the novel.
Seriously, I do NOT think that slipping in a novella would impact the release of SA3 in the slightest.
I will point out, though, that we should have time for a quick Warbreaker reread before SA3 comes out… :D
Ooooo…I love the idea of a Warbreaker Reread!
@66: Ditto!
@62: I agree a 100% with you and I do share your concerns/fears. However, I do think Alice has given us enough background information for us to be, currently, reasonably confident the writing of the novel will not delay SA3. If that is indeed the case, then this novel is excellent news for us, fans, as it means we are going to get something to put under our tooth no farther than next spring. Even if it turns out being on a character I personally dislike, I am sure it will still be worth reading.
That being said, I too wished the gap between the books, as per my previous message, would be shorter and I feel Brandon perhaps should not have promised a 1.5 to 2 years gap for SA3… It made us fans anticipate it for next year which means many of us are disappointed by the Christmas 2016 release.
I too would wish for additional material in between now and the release. Perhaps if he were to release one or two pre-release chapters, it would be great, chapters teasing enough to make us speculate to no end. Perhaps a chapter from Urithiru would be great…. so much going on there.
Oh, I’m pretty sure Tor will release various chapters ahead of time as teasers, proposed novella notwithstanding. I’d expect to see them starting in late October, maybe? There’s quite a stretch after the final editing is complete where it’s just going through the processes of printing and binding – that many copies don’t happen in a couple of days! So there should be time when it really is complete to release a sequence of advance chapters, and of course there will be some kind of advance reviews, glimpses, etc. They’ll give us plenty to whet our appetites and get that book pre-ordered. :D
Come to think of it, an electronic-release novella in the spring or early summer might be really, really nice. As Gepeto points out @68, it will give us new material to slaver over while we wait for the teasers to start. And it will be a complete-ish story, so we’re not merely salivating over hints and beginnings, which might be nice.
I am very grateful for how open Brandon is about his process. As Alice has already pointed out, we actually get the big epics faster with him writing all of these “side projects” than we would otherwise. And that’s not even mentioning the fact that many of these side projects are highly entertaining in their own right. It baffles me that even with such a prodigious output, people still find something to complain about.
More on topic for the actual chapter: I appreciate the various comments about why Sebarial’s bookkeeping is such a mess. I don’t know that we’ll see an official explanation in-text, but I like the “intentionally messy to keep things quiet” theory best myself.
Novella: So many interesting possibilities. I think you could get some great stories out of Axies or Rysn, although I wouldn’t want to take away from interludes in the main book. I’d kind of like to see Helaran, actually – why he went to find the Skybreakers, what that group is planning, and what was going through his mind when he met Kaladin all seem like great stories, and would obviously have a definite end.
Oh, and count me in for the Warbreaker re-read, if and when it happens.
I would love a Warbreaker reread!
Lightsong is, to this day, one my favorite Sanderson characters.
@61 mnmama:
Well, Makabakam was also one of the Silver Kingdoms or Epoch Kingdoms. And the world’s divisions in that time period seem to be well known to everyone in spite of being ancient history.
Characters also talk about “Selay” people and languages and so on, even though Sela Tales is now divided into several nations. And “Natan” people and places, even though Natanatan is now divided between (a) territory conquered by Alethkar, (b) a couple neo-founded city-states, and (c) a whole bunch of unclaimed wilderness.
Some of the Epoch Kingdoms happen to be associated with only one modern nation, so it’s not as obvious when the characters talk about them. “Shin” can mean “of Shin-Kak-Nish” as easily as it can mean “of Shinovar.” “Thaylen” can mean “of Thalath” as easily as “of Thaylenah.”
People call dark-skinned “Makabaki” in Roshar just like some people say “African” for all dark-skinned people in our world. (And just like in our world, this assumption isn’t always accurate — the dark-skinned worldhoppers and probably the dark-skinned Heralds aren’t actually Makabaki.)
And if Makabaki people are talked about more than Selay or Natan people, I think it’s probably just because they’re more common. Natan people seem to be fairly rare after the fall of their historical nation, and we know Aimians are rare after their “scouring;” meanwhile, Makabakam covered a huge territory in what seems to be the temperate central region of Roshar.
I can’t remember (I’ve read so much so quickly to catch up with everyone on this ReRead), is there any question about Renarin being a proto-Radiant? If so, there’s a new WOB that confirms it:
@73: I do not think there ever were any doubts as to Renarin being a proto-Radiant. It was even announced before the release of WoR as I recall reading about a girl having had a signed up stating how Renarin saw a spren or something along those lines. I would be hard press to find the evidence again, but truth to be told, Renarin becoming a Radiant hardly came as a surprise to those who were involved in pre-WoR discussions. As I was not one of those persons, it was a surprise, for me.
@72 McKay, B: as I mentioned above, I’m new, and have tried to squeeze way too much info into my brain, too quickly. It is starting to do funny things inside my head, and I wish the crem would settle to the bottom! Anyway, Do we know that the world-hoppers and 3 Heralds aren’t Makabaki? I know Shalash is described as not quite Makabaki, so ok. Do we know about Nale and Talenel? The world-hoppers?
@69 Wetlandernw: I’ll slaver and salivate over anything I can get my hands on, I’m not proud ;-)
@75 mnmama – The identity of the three world-hoppers from the Purelake interlude is known (see the coppermind here: (slight spoiler warning) http://coppermind.net/wiki/Seventeenth_Shard) Relevant to this discussion, the three all originate from off-world, so they definitely aren’t Makabaki. I can’t comment on Nale and Taln – I don’t believe that we know for certain either way.
@61 I’ve been mulling this over the last couple days, and here are my thoughts. I think you are right in that there is a hint with the Makabaki skin color. However, I only have half a guess at what it is hinting at. Maybe the Makibaki are descended from migrants from some other shardworld. As of yet, I’m not sure why that would be important.
But as far as mentioning the race 4500 years after the, ahem, splintering of their kingdom, I think it is important to remember that Roshar is one big super continent. It seems that Rosharans refer to those ancient Silver Kingdoms in the same way we Earthlings refer to continents.
@76 jeremyguebert – oh, yeah, I do remember reading that about the world-hoppers. Duh. Thanks for the reminder!
Wetlandernw @69 said “They’ll give us plenty to whet our appetites and get that book pre-ordered.” [emphasis added]. Us, she says. Wetlandernw, you were a beta reader for WoK. If you are a beta reader for the 3rd book, then you will already have read those scenes that Tor will “give us [non beta readers] plenty to whet our appetites”.
Some people have all the good fortune :)
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
I have finally caught up with the re-read and can participate in the comments!
I think the definition of a side character being one that has limited POV is not completely accurate. It seems to me a side character is one who does not drive the story forward. By that definition Szeth and Eshonai are definitely main characters because their actions drive the plot and their thoughts give insight to the main ideas of the story. I’m personally a fan of Szeth and Eshonai and am pleased they will be flashback characters for upcoming installments. It was my impression that their being flashback POV characters meant those books would highly focus on them in the current action as well, is that not the case?
@80: Not necessarily. Brandon state the pattern of book 1 and 2 would not repeat itself for all books. My current understanding is a book with flashbacks from Szeth (for example) may not necessarily focus on him in the main plot or not as focus as the first two books were on Kaladin and Shallan. Or maybe it will. I guess we do not know at this point in time.
For my part, I hate knowing who the flashback characters are as I have a very hard time not linking flashback characters to the main story characters even if I know it means nothing. So for me knowing characters I see as “side characters” or “important secondary characters” will become probably major is a hard pill to swallow as none of them are Adolin and he is the one I want to read about the most. It has been a constant negative bump for me to know he will never get a special spotlight.
As for the distinction between “main” and “side”, I tend to see “main” characters as those whose personality are exploited the best, those I follow the actions the most, those I know of their inner feelings, their background, those I get to really know as opposed to those who drives the action. So for me, a “main” has a lot of POV which is why neither Szeth nor Eshonai make the cut for me. I understand my own personal vision may not be shared by everyone, so as I said earlier, I may simply be playing with words.
I still think a Szeth novella would have been interesting, but I understand my own personal perception of him is probably wrong. Oh well. I hope it won’t be Lopen though… but anyone else would be great.
Brandon has pointed out before that it’s entirely possible that a flashback character might actually be dead in the real-time action sequence. He’s working to pick the flashback sequence that best fits the plot of the particular book… whatever that means. He may be setting up certain parallels, or themes, or… I don’t know. I’m not the creative genius. :) But I’m absolutely confident that he’ll put them together in the way that works best for him, which is fine by me.
I am sure it will be awesome, but truth to be told, when I found out he was giving the spotlight to Szeth, Eshonai, Lift, Jasnah, Renarin, Taln, Shalash and no Adolin I was seriously depressed. Why does the character I have grown to love within the first two books does not get a book of his own while secondary if not nearly non-existing characters did? I guess it has to do with the fact most of his action is told from the Shallan/Kaladin perspective as opposed to his own and the fact we had 3 chapters on Kaladin brooding in prison, but not a single one on Adolin dealing with having letting his girlfriend drop to her death on the Plains… I will just have to put in my head he is a lesser character than the other 10 and deal with it.
Still it hurts. I guess this is how the Renarin fans felt when they found out he did not get POV in WoR, but at least, they can rejoice in knowing he will grow in importance. I can only depress further.
@83: Maybe because Adolin’s life story is just too simple and happy. We get his POV as part of the main story. We will learn more about him from Dallinar’s and Renarin’s flashbacks. There is no hidden brokenness to find. If he does break, it will be in the current action.
I’m betting we will continue to get more Adolin, so I hope that helps with the hurt.
@84: Thank you for your kind words.
Was Adolin’s life truly this simple? It seems most readers have assume as much, but can we really disregard the fact his mother did die when he was a child or the fact he gave up all of his former aspirations (becoming a duelist and the king’s champion) in order to become a soldier (which he did not want to) simply because he naively thought killing enough Parshendis may fix his broken father following Galivar’s death? Or can we disregard the fact he was rejected by every single girl he ever courted/dated? And there is this Shardblade he unexpectedly won….
It seems as there was more to it then we have been led to believe…
Simply because he appears successful, does not mean he truly is. His past does not look less eventful than Jasnah or Renarin whom are both getting flashback books.
There is also the fact this reread has highlighted something I had completely missed on my first read… Each and every single time Adolin is with Kaladin and/or Shallan, Brandon present the POV of either one of the last two. The only times we get Adolin’s POV are when he is either: alone or with his father. This may not be much, but this combined with the fact he is not getting the spotlight in any book tells me the character will probably never reach Kaladin/Shallan’s importance and remain a side-kick to the story. I assume we are going to keep on reading about him, but from the Kaladin/Shallan and probably Renarin’s POV which we are supposed to get in book 3. I had other wishes and hopes, so it currently feels aweful to invest myself in a character which will never reach the importance of almost every other single named character of import, small or large.
As for Dalinar, I feel one flashback book will never be enough. There is so much going on with Dalinar I fear we may only get glimpses, but I want to know about his relationship with Galivar, especially as young men. I want to know about Navani. I want to know about his trip to the West, about the 3 years courtship of Shshshsh, about the war where he earned his name, The Blackthorn and I also want to know about the early years of the Parshendis war. I want to read how it is Dalinar broke down over Galivar’s death. I can imagine it, but I also want to read it.
You guys all overlooked the obvious choice for the novella…..
Stick!!
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The world-hoppers aren’t Makabaki, because they come from worlds that don’t have a Makabakam. :) For example, Galathon (one of the dark-skinned who is described as a Makabaki) is ethnically a Dula, from Duladel.
The Heralds could be Makabaki; we sadly don’t know much about them at all. But my personal guess is that they’re so ancient that the same ethnicities (and geographic distribution of ethnicities) didn’t even exist when they came along. This is supported somewhat by the way Taln surprised the people he interacts with, by speaking perfect Alethi and being large in stature in spite of him “Makabaki” skin tone.
Someone may have already said this or thought of this but what if Eshonai becomes Odium’s champion? Remember when the Almighty tells Dalinar that he must convince Odium to take a hero? So that would kind of put Eshonai as Odium’s hero and Dalinar as the Almighty’s.
Someone else pointed out that Jasnah is in the middle of nowhere headed to a random town… Hearthstone, anyone?!=D
@54 G. R. R. Martin has successfully kept many adults into his series and he does not even try to hurry up his pace. With Mr. Sanderson’s work so far, I think many will probably stick with him=). Also, I think Adolin’s loss of temper at the end of WOR was hinted at throughout the book. He usually was with wiser men who prevented him from doing anything foolish or surrounded by a crowd of people. But in that instance, Sadeas pushed him too hard without enough back up.
@86 You win the internet.
A little late in responding, but whatever…
mnmama@73 – You could be referencing one of my posts. I would sometimes point out to exercise caution when fandom easily accepted Renarin as a Truthwatcher. The reader hadn’t received any hard, objective proof that Renarin was a Truthwatcher, other than Renarin calling himself one. (We have better proof that Renarin has supernatural abilities and is likely a surgebinder, but there is no actual in-book proof that he is a Truthwatcher).
I would draw a parallel between Renarin’s proclamation at the end of Words of Radiance and the man at the end of The Way of Kings who proclaimed himself Talenel’Elin. Brandon has made it a point to have the reader question whether the man is indeed Taln (Brandon refers to him as “the man who called himself Taln” or something like that). Both Renarin and “Taln” have given reason for us to believe what they say (Taln’s breaking down the gates of Kholinar and his later demonstration of superhuman reflexes; Renarin’s visions and hearing the screams of the Shardblade), but we have had no independent source to verify their claims as of yet.
Renarin calls himself a Truthwatcher and references his spren, Glys. Brandon had previously mentioned that (paraphrasing) Renarin saw a spren that no one else can see. But the audience never gets in Renarin’s head to verify any of this.
So, I was just preaching caution. And waiting for any WoB that confirmed Renarin was a Truthwatcher. I still hadn’t found a clear one yet (Seriously, go searching “Renarin” or “Truthwatcher” in the theoryland database; no joy. And going through the compiled WoB on 17th Shard, or trying to just search “Renarin” or “Truthwatcher” can suck up hours of time with no quality results), but the one WoB referenced @73 has come the closest. (I just wish in that quote that Brandon had said “The toughest one to name was, Renarin’s order, the Truthwatchers, because…”)
Brandon has taught us to be cautious in making assumptions and/or accepting the word of somewhat unreliable narrators without proof. So I was just urging caution with accepting the fact of Renarin being a Truthwatcher without additional proof.
As for the novella, I’d be cool with Lopen, Lift, Rysn, Rock, Axies or whomever else Brandon picks :-)
Re: “Main characters” vs “side characters” – I think it’s a matter of perspective and time. After WoK, I would not have labeled Adolin as a main character. After WoR, I would.
@90: Side characters vs main characters and Adolin: I have just stumbled on a nice one… It comes from a signature someone got, from Brandon, on his signed book.
Adolin’s entire plot in the Stormlight Archive has been rebuilt because he worked so well in book one. He has a bigger role now
So… Hard to interpret. He clearly is not one of the main characters, but he has gotten bigger than initial plans. Dunno what it means. It does confirm it was never in the plan to have him be one of the main characters, so he will never be a strong character such as the other 10. Sadly. I was naively hoping he would grow, but best outcome now seems the strong side-kick. So Blade revival theory may as well go to the sewer with it as it would need a strong character to carry it all.
@91 Gepeto. I have to disagree with you that Adolin isn’t\won’t be a strong character in future books regardless of how many POV’s we get from him. I’m not ready to give up on the hope of blade restoration yet either, even if he is as you predict staying a “side kick” character . I really enjoyed Adolin in WOR and I hope that he will continue to grow and develop as a character. I will still like Adolin even if he never gets to be a Radiant, though I think he would be awesome! I’m looking forward to the next book to see Shallan and Adolins continued courtship and maybe marriage?
@92: Do not get me wrong, I hope for the same thing, but the fact remains Brandon has never listed him as one of his main protagonist which suggest a lesser role than any of them. This new WoB I have found just highlights a fact I have feared for the longest time: Adolin is not a character Brandon has planned. He happened. He worked, so he gave him a bigger role than initially anticipated. This is very good news, except it also means he will not be one of the main protagonist as I doubt Brandon would change his entire row of major characters because a secondary one ended up being worth developing more.
My hopes have always been Adolin would grow into one of the main protagonists even though he did not get flashbacks. Worst, I was hoping he would be one of the character used to explore one of the orders, but the fact he is not planned kinda put a nail into those expectations. As for Shallan, well…. If Adolin initially was supposed to be a minor character, then I doubt he will marry Shallan and I doubt Brandon would change something as major as a relationship simply because his previously very minor character got promoted to strong side-kick.
As for the Blade revival story, it is such a strong one it needs an equally strong character to carry it on. Adolin had that potential to be this character, but only if the author was willing to make him one of his protagonists. Right now, he is giving him a bigger role… but how much bigger? Big as Kaladin? Probably not. Big enough to carry on a plot arc worthy of Kaladin or Shallan type of characters? Sadly, probably not as well.
So yeah I am bummed, because no matter how I interpret these WoB, I get disillusioned. The character I love will not get his special spotlight nor will he ever gain enough importance to play within the major league. I should simply dis-invest myself in him and try to invest myself more into the other characters. They are all great, but Adolin was the one I connected the more with.